In divided times, Gov. Cox prescribes passionate disagreement, minus contempt

NPR's Sacha Pfeiffer talks with Spencer Cox, Republican governor of Utah, about his new book, Off Ramp , and his vision for peacemaking.

SACHA PFEIFFER, HOST: Utah Republican Governor Spencer Cox has just published a book. But for the record, he says he is not running for president. SPENCER COX: And I wanted to make that clear from the jump. PFEIFFER: His book is called "Off Ramp: How To Be A Peacemaker In An Age Of Contempt." It's an extension of public comments he made after the killing of Charlie Kirk at Utah Valley University. (SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING) COX: If anyone in the sound of my voice celebrated even a little bit at the news of this shooting, I would beg you to look in the mirror and to see if you can find a better angel in there somewhere. PFEIFFER: That was exactly one year ago, and just today, Cox declared September 10 Charlie Kirk Day in Utah. Governor Cox voted for Donald Trump in 2024. So when we talked about his book, I asked him how his plea for productive disagreement squares with his support for a president who seems to relish conflict. COX: I totally understand the pushback. I got it from friends. I got it from family. You know, I tried for eight years the other approach, the more antagonistic approach, the not supporting approach, and decided that I needed to disagree better, to try to find a way to have a relationship with someone who saw this issue in particular very differently than I. And because of that, he and I have a very positive relationship, and we've been able to have these discussions about my approach versus his approach and which approach is better and which approach is right. He and I will never agree on that. But we've been able to work on lots of other issues because we have found some common ground. I mean, you referenced my plea to the nation after the assassination of Charlie Kirk. He called me right after that press conference, and he said, you know, I really liked what you said there. He said, I don't know if people buy that, but I appreciated what you said. And ultimately, look, this - I - no president, no governor is going to solve what's broken in our country. Too many Americans have lost close personal friends, have lost family members to politics, where they don't talk to each other anymore, and that number is exploding. And it's incredibly unhealthy. It's bad for our country. It's bad for our souls. PFEIFFER: Do you think President Trump has been more helpful or hurtful in your message of trying to ratchet down the rhetoric, reduce our contempt and try to shrink the gulf that has developed between us? COX: Yeah. I mean, if he were here, he would tell you that's not something he's interested in. I mean, he's told me that personally. And... PFEIFFER: He's told you that? That he... COX: Oh. PFEIFFER: ...Feels like unifying is not his goal, is not what he thinks would be good for the country? COX: No, not that unifying isn't his goal. That - I mean, I think he would love to unify, but that our approaches are very different. And that's, you know, he - I think that maybe the best example of this comes from Charlie Kirk's own memorial. I was there. You know, it was very public in which Erika Kirk has this moment - right? - this incredible healing moment, one of the most amazing, Christian moments I've ever experienced, where she forgives very publicly her husband's assassin. And then, a few minutes later, you know, President Trump is on stage, and he said, you know, Charlie said that we should love our enemies. You know, he says, I just can't do that. I don't remember exact words, but he says, I can't love my enemies. I hate my enemies. I - and he even apologizes. He says, I'm sorry, Charlie. I'm - you know, I'm sorry, Erika. I can't do that. PFEIFFER: For exactly opposite the message you're trying to send. COX: It is exactly the opposite. And that's - again, that's one area where we are in disagreement. PFEIFFER: Well, and again, I don't want to belabor this, but because Trump is so central now to all the politics of our country, I understand that for you as a governor and for many other high-level politicians, they have to figure out how to get along with him, even if they don't agree with everything he says and does. But his messaging is so counterproductive to what you are preaching and what your book says that I'm wondering how you reconcile that in terms of your relationship with him. COX: Yeah, the - people are unique and different, and we all have our strengths and our weaknesses. This is one where we are just always going to disagree. And yet, that's the whole point of this exercise. We can have relationships with people, even on this issue, that disagree passionately with us, and I'm going to continue to do that. We also have our own agency, and that is, I get to decide how I'm going to govern. And I hope people will judge me on that. And I also want to be clear. I'm not great at this. Every incentive - to President Trump's, you know, credit, I guess - like, every incentive in politics right now is aligned for his approach, not mine. PFEIFFER: Like tweets that get a lot of attention, that make headlines. COX: Exactly. The algorithm. PFEIFFER: As the governor of Utah, you've taken a lot of heat lately for not only supporting Trump but also supporting data centers, what people consider book bans, a presence of ICE detention facilities. I'm wondering how easy or difficult it was to take your own advice and try to take the high road when you're facing that kind of criticism. COX: I'm the worst possible spokesperson for this because I'm deeply flawed. And it's so much easier to just hammer, tear down our opponents. And I do fall for it sometimes. But I'm working on it. And I appreciate the grace that people have given me when I probably didn't deserve it, and I'm working hard to give that grace to other people. I'm trying to model the very things, you know, that I talk about, trying to practice what I preach. I don't often get it right. I don't always get it right. I - and I try to apologize when I don't, and I try to do better the next time. And I think that's all we can hope for with our fellow Americans. I like to say there's nothing more un-American than hating our fellow Americans, and I certainly want to not fall into that trap. PFEIFFER: Yeah. Governor Cox, you promise a positive book. But most of your book until the very end is extremely dark and depressing. And then when I got to your suggestions for how we can all be peacemakers, they felt to me like pretty classic advice for respectful disagreement. I mean, there was a kind of, honestly, a platitude quality to them. Do you think that they're enough given where we are as a country today? COX: Yeah, I really do. And that's the best part of all of this is it's just kind of getting back to basics. There's no magic answer to any of this, except that, again, the good news. And I want to end with the best possible news, and that is 70% of Americans hate where we are right now. They hate the toxicity. They're tired. PFEIFFER: Yeah. COX: We used to call it the silent majority. Now refer to it as the exhausted majority. PFEIFFER: We're united on that one thing, at least. COX: Yeah, people want something different, want something better. There is a market failure in both parties, but the party that figures this out is going to do very, very well in some future election, and I certainly hope it's my party. PFEIFFER: That is Spencer Cox. He's the governor of Utah. His new book is "Off Ramp: How To Be A Peacemaker In An Age Of Contempt." Governor Cox, thank you. COX: Thank you, Sacha. (SOUNDBITE OF TIN HAT TRIO'S "NIGHT OF THE SKEPTIC") Copyright © 2026 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information. Accuracy and availability of NPR transcripts may vary. Transcript text may be revised to correct errors or match updates to audio. Audio on npr.org may be edited after its original broadcast or publication. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.

SACHA PFEIFFER, HOST: Utah Republican Governor Spencer Cox has just published a book. But for the record, he says he is not running for president. SPENCER COX: And I wanted to make that clear from the jump. PFEIFFER: His book is called "Off Ramp: How To Be A Peacemaker In An Age Of Contempt." It's an extension of public comments he made after the killing of Charlie Kirk at Utah Valley University. (SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING) COX: If anyone in the sound of my voice celebrated even a little bit at the news of this shooting, I would beg you to look in the mirror and to see if you can find a better angel in there somewhere. PFEIFFER: That was exactly one year ago, and just today, Cox declared September 10 Charlie Kirk Day in Utah. Governor Cox voted for Donald Trump in 2024. So when we talked about his book, I asked him how his plea for productive disagreement squares with his support for a president who seems to relish conflict. COX: I totally understand the pushback. I got it from friends. I got it from family. You know, I tried for eight years the other approach, the more antagonistic approach, the not supporting approach, and decided that I needed to disagree better, to try to find a way to have a relationship with someone who saw this issue in particular very differently than I. And because of that, he and I have a very positive relationship, and we've been able to have these discussions about my approach versus his approach and which approach is better and which approach is right. He and I will never agree on that. But we've been able to work on lots of other issues because we have found some common ground. I mean, you referenced my plea to the nation after the assassination of Charlie Kirk. He called me right after that press conference, and he said, you know, I really liked what you said there. He said, I don't know if people buy that, but I appreciated what you said. And ultimately, look, this - I - no president, no governor is going to solve what's broken in our country. Too many Americans have lost close personal friends, have lost family members to politics, where they don't talk to each other anymore, and that number is exploding. And it's incredibly unhealthy. It's bad for our country. It's bad for our souls. PFEIFFER: Do you think President Trump has been more helpful or hurtful in your message of trying to ratchet down the rhetoric, reduce our contempt and try to shrink the gulf that has developed between us? COX: Yeah. I mean, if he were here, he would tell you that's not something he's interested in. I mean, he's told me that personally. And... PFEIFFER: He's told you that? That he... COX: Oh. PFEIFFER: ...Feels like unifying is not his goal, is not what he thinks would be good for the country? COX: No, not that unifying isn't his goal. That - I mean, I think he would love to unify, but that our approaches are very different. And that's, you know, he - I think that maybe the best example of this comes from Charlie Kirk's own memorial. I was there. You know, it was very public in which Erika Kirk has this moment - right? - this incredible healing moment, one of the most amazing, Christian moments I've ever experienced, where she forgives very publicly her husband's assassin. And then, a few minutes later, you know, President Trump is on stage, and he said, you know, Charlie said that we should love our enemies. You know, he says, I just can't do that. I don't remember exact words, but he says, I can't love my enemies. I hate my enemies. I - and he even apologizes. He says, I'm sorry, Charlie. I'm - you know, I'm sorry, Erika. I can't do that. PFEIFFER: For exactly opposite the message you're trying to send. COX: It is exactly the opposite. And that's - again, that's one area where we are in disagreement. PFEIFFER: Well, and again, I don't want to belabor this, but because Trump is so central now to all the politics of our country, I understand that for you as a governor and for many other high-level politicians, they have to figure out how to get along with him, even if they don't agree with everything he says and does. But his messaging is so counterproductive to what you are preaching and what your book says that I'm wondering how you reconcile that in terms of your relationship with him. COX: Yeah, the - people are unique and different, and we all have our strengths and our weaknesses. This is one where we are just always going to disagree. And yet, that's the whole point of this exercise. We can have relationships with people, even on this issue, that disagree passionately with us, and I'm going to continue to do that. We also have our own agency, and that is, I get to decide how I'm going to govern. And I hope people will judge me on that. And I also want to be clear. I'm not great at this. Every incentive - to President Trump's, you know, credit, I guess - like, every incentive in politics right now is aligned for his approach, not mine. PFEIFFER: Like tweets that get a lot of attention, that make headlines. COX: Exactly. The algorithm. PFEIFFER: As the governor of Utah, you've taken a lot of heat lately for not only supporting Trump but also supporting data centers, what people consider book bans, a presence of ICE detention facilities. I'm wondering how easy or difficult it was to take your own advice and try to take the high road when you're facing that kind of criticism. COX: I'm the worst possible spokesperson for this because I'm deeply flawed. And it's so much easier to just hammer, tear down our opponents. And I do fall for it sometimes. But I'm working on it. And I appreciate the grace that people have given me when I probably didn't deserve it, and I'm working hard to give that grace to other people. I'm trying to model the very things, you know, that I talk about, trying to practice what I preach. I don't often get it right. I don't always get it right. I - and I try to apologize when I don't, and I try to do better the next time. And I think that's all we can hope for with our fellow Americans. I like to say there's nothing more un-American than hating our fellow Americans, and I certainly want to not fall into that trap. PFEIFFER: Yeah. Governor Cox, you promise a positive book. But most of your book until the very end is extremely dark and depressing. And then when I got to your suggestions for how we can all be peacemakers, they felt to me like pretty classic advice for respectful disagreement. I mean, there was a kind of, honestly, a platitude quality to them. Do you think that they're enough given where we are as a country today? COX: Yeah, I really do. And that's the best part of all of this is it's just kind of getting back to basics. There's no magic answer to any of this, except that, again, the good news. And I want to end with the best possible news, and that is 70% of Americans hate where we are right now. They hate the t